Regular readers know my interest regarding the theology-science interchange. One of the reasons I write about it is that there are some people out there who are truly interested in learning that they don’t have to make a choice, thus they want to know how these two fields can influence us in today’s world.
I know I don’t expect all Christians to agree with me, and realize that viewpoints from non-Christians will vary. However, a slice of Christianity unquestionably does NOT speak for me.
I am a member of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA), and enjoy reading its periodical – The Lutheran. The recent issue had a short article about evolution. The article was purposefully board, but the online comments were a must-read for me because I continue to proclaim that organizations like the ELCA and its member churches do a lousy job at educating their flock.
Comments as these below were the minority viewpoint, but they drive Christian, agnostic, and atheistic evolutionists up a wall, misrepresent the majority of Christians, drive the wedge between evolutionary Christians and non-believing evolutionists, prey on the unknowing, demonstrate a need for education, and reinforce my notion that this issue is a conflict between religions – not between religion and science.
Comments as these also demonstrate this important point: Disagreeing with science does not make science wrong.
Darwinian evolution never happened.
Science is showing that life rapidly evolved by design indicating a creator God.
More and more fossil finds, DNA evidence, Intelligent Design studies, the Institute for Creation Research RATE research, etc. are challenging Darwinism, the old earth and the local Noah’s flood.
Shouldn’t there be massive amounts of fossil evidence of dinosaur evolution and everything else that has evolved since the destruction? Horse and whale evolution stories have been discredited by recent fossil finds.
Evolution has not been observed scientifically.
Bacteria resistance to antibiotics is not “evolution.”
There is no experimental evidence for evolution.
Darwinism is the religion of the secular humanist atheist.
Evolution is not a fact. It is not even a scientific theory, but our education system treats evolution as fact.
Unlike true science, the claims of Darwinian evolution cannot be tested or replicated.
Evolution is an idea that leads to bad consequences.
Evolution pre-supposes the absence or non-existence of a Creator, thus leading to false conclusions.
Evolution explains with the origins of life.
There is no consensus on the subject of evolution. There remains a mystery about how life was established.
Neither Creationism nor Darwinism seems to be supported by natural evidence.
Evolutionism is a stumbling block for biblical belief because it not only conflicts with the book of Genesis it conflicts with the Bible.
Even geologists do not actually find evidence for evolution in the fossil records.
Darwin could not define “species” and even today, there is no consensus on a definition.
Darwin had little proof in the fossil record to support his claim.
No one has evidence to prove that God doesn’t exist, so to offer only the deception of evolutionary thought clinging to the belief that life formed by chance random processes continues to be difficult to accept.
Darwin did not have the benefit of DNA. (AFA: This one cracks me up because Darwin was 100+ years before the discovery of DNA. I’ve seen the same rationale used regarding Darwin and Gregor Mendel/genetics, who was also after Darwin. )
The (DNA) evidence is moving in the wrong direction for confirming evolution.
Earth is young.
Overwhelming evidence, much of it recent, from geology, anthropology, DNA studies, computer simulations of weather, etc. confirm the event of Noah’s flood covering the whole planet actually happened.
Creation WAS perfect. Creation WAS all that it was to be. WE, US, HUMANS, ADAM sinned and destroyed creation. Now it is decay, dying, dark, and sad.
A Frank Angle 
If they weren’t religious, they’d find something else to hold on to to protect their small-mindedness. Sorry you have them under your umbrella.
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Guapo,
Love your point because topics connect, so small-minded views are generally not isolated to one topic. Meanwhile, I wanted to write a comment asking why anyone with those thoughts would remain in the ELCA, but I decided to take the high road.
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Christianity is a single term, used to describe many different beliefs. In past times, the ignorance was to confuse and conflict the ideologies between science and Christianity. But in recent generations, we find out that this conflict is caused by the different doctrines the Christians have (I’m a Christian by the way), against one another. Although, the Atheist say there’s no God, but they will also agree that there’s a greater force beyond this world that even science has not proven, and may never prove. Eg: why do people die? what happens to them afterwards, aside decomposition? why do people fear death and hope to live forever, but they still die anyway? why do we even grow old at all? why is there no such thing as forever on earth? what leads people to do evil, and what makes them always pay for their evil deeds? I could go on and on with these questions; and none of us can give accurate answers to them; at least not by scientific terms. Our religious beliefs should not hinder us from knowing the difference between a true fact and one that’s based on lies. I agree with you @aFrank Angle; it’s not between science and religion, it’s between different religious beliefs…. My honest opinion… This is a nice topic to debate on.
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Eve,
Welcome firs-time commenter.
Thanks for your thoughtful comments. Given this is my 44th post about the interchange between science and religion, you may be interested to dive into the archives. Here’s a link. https://afrankangle.wordpress.com/category/religion-and-science
We must be careful at generalizing, because atheists also have varying thoughts between them. Yet to many of them, possibly most, it’s all right here and now. … thus I want to distinguish them from agnostics and naturalists.
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aFrankAngle,
Thanks. will read through the archives. Do keep up the good work
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🙂 …. and I envision more in the future.
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Sure thing!
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Thanks for keeping the conversation going–and demonstrating the need for open-mindedness and ongoing learning.
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Patti,
As I say in the post, I truly believe that most people are poorly informed at the church end on the topic. Meanwhile, even at the education end, the majority of students are either poorly taught or not taught at all. Nonetheless, I try to educate a little … plus I look forward to the next few books that are on my plate.
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Nope, Darwin did not have the benefit of DNA. However, had he had the benefit of DNA, “Origin of the Species” would have been irrefutable – at least that’s my opinion. 🙂 Oh yes, and I’m sure you know, Frank, that a species is defined as a distinct life form that can reproduce itself. And so true, disagreeing with science does not make science wrong.
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Cathy,
Well, we’re going to disagree with this point because DNA strengthens the evolutionary links. Meanwhile, where the comment about the species still floors me!
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Did say that wrong! Because that’s what I meant. DNA strengthens the idea of evolution!
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Oh crap … no you didn’t … I understood it wrong … my apologies to you.
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Oh, it’s okay. I wrote it late last night and wasn’t sure I had said it correctly.
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You are fine … a total goof at my end.
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Its one of my favourite topics too 🙂 Science and Christianity can easily co-exist and even compliment each other. I don’t know how far you lean one way or the other, and I don’t mean to offend if I’m speaking out of turn to your beliefs!
The biggest issue I think with this topic is that so often each ‘side’ has a closed mind – Some Christians take the Bible the ultimate truth 100% as written (every word – I had a very interesting discussion with someone about this..maybe too intese for a blog comment though!) and equally some scientists will never even consider the possibility that there might be a God. Once entrenched like that, no discourse is even possible. As you say, disagreeing with science does not make it wrong, and equally, disagreeing with faith does not make it wrong either..
Generally, as with most things in life, a happy medium is easily achievable without breaking either tennet or going down the road of cognitive dissonance! The universe is as a complex to us as our world must be to an ant, so why should we be able to fathom it all in our little heads?!
God bless, may the force be with you. 😉
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Charlie,
Thanks for your comment, and NOPE … nothing even remotely offensive to me as I too see them as easily coexisting. Two points.
1) When we talk about the two sides, we are actually focusing on the two extremes of an actual range of thoughts. In other words, there are much more than just two. Here’s a post from not long ago. https://afrankangle.wordpress.com/2013/03/18/on-a-coin-analogy/
2) Because you have an interest in the topic, feel free to dive into the 44 posts to date. Here’s the category link that shows posts from the most recent. https://afrankangle.wordpress.com/category/religion-and-science/
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A friend of mine, a Pentecostal-type preacher, once encountered a man in a Bible study who insisted that the Earth was flat because the Bible talks about the “four corners” of the Earth. Now, my friend is fairly conservative, but he had no response for the individual. He confessed that he was grateful that the gentleman was not a member of his church, though. It is in one way sad that there are Lutherans with this opinion on evolution, but it is also a an interesting study in holding opposite viewpoints in tension and living together (we hope).
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Ken,
Welcome first-time commenter! Thanks for sharing the wonderful story about your friend. Meanwhile, living in disagreement is not only interesting, it’s also (in my opinion) an important point within the ELCA.
BTW, you seem interested in this topic, so here’s a link to my 44 posts from the most recent.
https://afrankangle.wordpress.com/category/religion-and-science/
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So narrow – scary
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GFB,
For sure, for sure.
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the last comment was a real upper — ha ha — thanks for the enlightenment Frank
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LouAnn,
When I was arranging the comments, that one stood out to me for being the last one!
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I can see why!
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I once had my youngest son read the first chapters of Genesis and write an argument either for or against Evolution and Dinosaurs based on what he read.
He wrote his argument For.
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Val,
Thanks for sharing the approach and result. How old was he at the time?
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I think he was 12, I still have the paper somewhere I will have to pull it out and check.
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Wow … that’s a tough challenge for a 12 year old … so well done, Mom!
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He was my genius problem child. Very much like me in many ways. Bookish but also a rebel. Ahead of his peers in so many ways. When he would be sent home from school for some miscreant behavior (usually correcting the teacher) I would set him to work! All to often, it was reading religious tomes since he loved to argue religion without the background or knowledge to do so.
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Thanks for sharing the scoop. How old is he now and what is he doing?
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He turned 33 this month. He remains the child of my soul while my eldest is the child of my mind. Both live nearby. He works though not to his potential. He has a lovely partner who has two young children, so perhaps I will have two new granddaughters some day (I think of them as such now). He doesn’t use his talent to draw, paint or write…I miss this for him but perhaps someday he will find his way back.
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Thanks for sharing!!!!
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You could do a whole post on just about each of those comments, I think, Frank.
But I have to say, this is the one that always makes me scratch my head:
“Creation WAS perfect. Creation WAS all that it was to be. WE, US, HUMANS, ADAM sinned and destroyed creation. Now it is decay, dying, dark, and sad.”
If creation was perfect how could man have sinned?
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Elyse,
No kidding … Personally, the science references give me a chuckle. As for the last statement, it was a perfect ending for the post.
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I’d love to see how they support their theories.
“Evolution is an idea that leads to bad consequences.”
“Evolution pre-supposes the absence or non-existence of a Creator, thus leading to false conclusions.”
And this one, well, I’ve seen many documentaries and read several articles regarding this matter (I love to read about cataclysms), and not one confirms it. I’d love to read what he read.
“Overwhelming evidence, much of it recent, from geology, anthropology, DNA studies, computer simulations of weather, etc. confirm the event of Noah’s flood covering the whole planet actually happened.
Great post Frank.
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Doggy,
Well then, I think you will enjoy this one from deep within my archives.
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I enjoy these posts and the comments after.
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Fasab,
You are a class act!
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Thanks. I have to tell you, I’ve been called a lot worse 🙂
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%#!@^%!!!!!
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Yes, that as well 🙂
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Many of those comments are obviously formed from misinformation/misunderstandings. Sadly, the tendency nowadays seems to be to skim the world’s wealth of information until one feels they’ve learned enough to form an opinion…. which often isn’t much. Blogs like this that open the topic up for discussion help combat that. Great post.
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Twixt,
People like this have use the ICR and Answers in Genesis as sources … and I’ll respectfully leave it at that. … and yes, tons of misinformation and misunderstandings exist … tons …. thus the importance of learning.
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While trying to understand the Large Hadron Collider that the Europeans built in Germany for nuclear fusion and atom splitting and other energy fields way over my head, I came across a few pictures that were so bright and colorful and the description from a tech that the moment of collision that divides matter and anti-matter produces a flash of enormously bright light.
My Christian brain went right to God’s word – “Let there be light.”
I sit comfortably with both, feeling as if science is proving the existence of God, not the other way around.
I do challenge the image we have of God though, and often wish we could rename all of the Deities under one name – such as ‘Higher Being’ and stop killing each other because we use different monikers for the same spiritual hope.
I love the way you question this and open the topic with both hats – professorial and believer. I find a lot of stuff in the Bible that makes me wonder. But being a Methodist, I can accept that human beings were taking the notes, translating the translations, and using the knowledge they had available to them at the time.
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Renee,
Many thanks for your thoughtful and thorough comment. Like many lines in the Bible, “Let there be light” is a discussion in itself … nonetheless, if the collider sets off a spark in your mind, consider that a success.
You mentioned the Methodist church. In my personal growth journey, I recall reading the statement from the United Methodist Church, which (to no surprise) was supportive of the my thoughts here on this subject. Meanwhile, keep on thinking and let me know if you need some reading resources.
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I read your post and all the comments…my head hurts! LOL! There is just so much to think about. I wish I could communicate as clearly on the topic as you do Frank. I also wondered if you would ever consider compiling (maybe as a separate page) some of your favorite readings or books related to science and/or religion? That may be next to impossible, but if you ever do, please be sure I see it! 🙂
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Debra,
I need many grains of salt to get through comments like these, but in the end, I roll with them by simply considering the source.
I will gladly put together a recap post with some resources … what a great idea. And if I don’t, keep bugging me to do so!
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I think you may enjoy this interview with Lutheran teacher/theologian Joseph Sittler, now deceased who taught at the University of Chicago School of Divinity. Faith is a direction. “We can postulate about God, but not prove him.” I especially enjoyed his commenting on “contrapuntal competence”, a practical approach to faith (he uses an analogy to music) and communicating it, at about minute 24:45. The rest of the interview is wonderful, too.
PS I lost your comment last week about “fireworks”…so sorry. My reply that never made it because I lost the comment “as if I wasn’t jumpy enough” last week.
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Georgette,
This info sounds wonderful … and I will watch! Many thanks!!!!
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oops…point taken on my commenting ability…sheesh…here’s the link to the interview…http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqaerr4ilbA
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I agree a zillion percent with you, Frank. Comments like the ones you shared here are infuriating, and they drive a greater wedge among people of all types—Christians and people of other faiths who still understand that there’s room for accepting scientific truths, atheists, scientists, agnostics, etc. There’s no reason science and religion can’t coexist. And as you said, disagreeing with science doesn’t mean it’s not true.
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Weebs,
Most of the items that are deemed “factual” come from the Institute of Creation Research and Answers in Genesis – two organizations whose science teams don’t publish in mainstream science journals and don’t present at science conventions … so they publish their own journals and have their own conventions to publicize their own factoids. Meanwhile, contrary to their beliefs, the don’t represent the majority of American Christians.
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I have no idea how I landed on this page, but I’m glad that I did! Great post, Frank; loving all the comments, too. Although, the quotes had my head spinning in disbelief. (that’s punny!)
Have you read any of Lyall Watson’s books? “Gifts of Unknown Things” – fabulous. I think you’d enjoy it. In the meantime…. I’ll check-out the link to your other 44, as well.
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Victoria,
I had to go to the post to remind myself because looking at the title, I was thinking it was a review of the movie!
My closing statement was the key here: Just because one disagrees with science doesn’t make science wrong. But I can honestly say that I’ve actually directly observed many of these comments.
Thanks for digging around!
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Hey Boots … Is their an issue at your site? I ask because I can’t get to it.
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Hey Frank! Happy Camel Day!! 🙂
I don’t think there’s an issue? But thanks for letting me know, I’ll look into it asap.
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For whatever reason, my Chrome browser won’t load you site (for whatever reason) … and I’ve tried in on different computers.
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That is bizzzaroh. I’m back from day’s events, I’ll go check it out right now. Thanks so much for letting me know. You’re probably not the only one experiencing the WP glitch. Thanks, Frank!
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